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backwater mary
Upstart Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 20 Location: Thomson, IL	Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Where does a Marquess rank?   I understand the rules of rank to be Duke, Earl, Viscount, Baron and Knight, but are there any others? Lately the word Marquess has cropped up in some stories and this has me puzzled. Where does this rank fit in? Between the Earl and the Duke? I am also wondering about gentlemen who have multiple titles. For instance, can he be the duke of this at the same time he is the earl of that and also have lesser titles including some viscountencies? Is this based on owned properties, familial inheritance, royal appointments or any/all of the three? When he does have multiple titles, does the wife's title share the level of his highest rank? Duke/Duchess, Earl/Countess, Viscount/Countess, Baron/Baroness and (Knight) Sir/Lady? So, if the rank of Marquess is legitimate, then what would his wife's title be? I am assuming here that Marquess is the English equivalent of the French Marquis, but perhaps it is different. As Candace said, books sometimes get it right and sometimes they don't. Since there have been so many stories written in the last few years that cover the Regency/Georgian period, some authors have been really stretching things and it gets confusing to those who read these errors and have to try to figure them out. Medievals, of course, have totally different rankings, but then that's a question for another day. _________________ Anything but housework!
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:35 pm    Post subject:   Mary, I think the whole business of titles and rank are most confusing to we poor republican (small r) Americans. We just don't get it! The order of the ranks is: Duke (called His Grace of Titlename) Marquess (called Lord Titlename, his wife is Lady Titlename) Earl (called Lord Titlename, his wife is Lady Titlename) Viscount (called Lord Titlename, his wife is Lady Titlename) Baron (called Lord Titlename, his wife is Lady Titlename) Baronet (called Sir Firstname, his wife is Lady Lastname) Knight (called Sir Firstname, his wife is Lady Lastname) A high ranking peer, like a duke or marquess, may indeed have several lesser titles. His wife is known by his highest title. The highest of the lesser titles is usually taken by his eldest son as a courtesy title. Yes, most of the peerage titles (Baron and above) are associated with land. When a monarch bestows a title, the letters patent often includes a grant of land, which becomes part of the entailment. Yes, marquess is the equivalent of the French marquis. But where the French wife of a marquis is a marquise, the English wife is a marchioness. The English earl is the equivalent of the French count, and as in France, his wife is a countess. Here is a great site that explains everything about titles and forms of address: http://laura.chinet.com//html/titles02.html _________________
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Lady Di
Countess of the Manor Joined: 23 Jan 2007 Posts: 1829 Location: At the No. 10 Tea Shop selecting tea	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject:   So Candice, isn't a marquess heir to a dukedom? Or is that only when the duke holds the marquess title and it's given as a lesser title to the heir? I know I have read this in books at some time or another. The scheming mothers were prodding their daughters at the hero because he was heir to a dukedom... Like Mary said, so many authors are so liberal with their useage, it's hard to go back and erase all of that bad info, once you have it stuck in your head. KWIM? _________________ ~~*Diana*~~ Spiders we've caught in the house as of 8/30/08: 121 QOTD: How come nobody mentions spiders in their romance books set in England?
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LadyVictoria
Baroness of the Manor Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Posts: 648 Location: Goshen, NY	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:00 am    Post subject:   And before I shoot myself, let me check this. My WIP has the heroes father as Marquess and his older brother as Earl. When his older brother dies, he become Earl. This is correct, yes? And once the father dies, that means the hero would become the new Marquess?? _________________ ___________________ Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:40 am    Post subject:   Lady Di wrote: So Candice, isn't a marquess heir to a dukedom? Or is that only when the duke holds the marquess title and it's given as a lesser title to the heir? I know I have read this in books at some time or another. The scheming mothers were prodding their daughters at the hero because he was heir to a dukedom... Like Mary said, so many authors are so liberal with their useage, it's hard to go back and erase all of that bad info, once you have it stuck in your head. KWIM? A marquess is often a courtesy title given to the eldest son of a duke, assuming the duke HAS a marquessate at his disposal. But it can also be a full title bestowed by the monarch. Usually if a duke has a marquess title for his son it is because he (or one of his ancestors) once held the title before being granted the dukedom. He doesn't give the lower title away when he gets "promoted." _________________ Last edited by Candice on Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:49 am    Post subject:   LadyVictoria wrote: And before I shoot myself, let me check this. My WIP has the heroes father as Marquess and his older brother as Earl. When his older brother dies, he become Earl. This is correct, yes? And once the father dies, that means the hero would become the new Marquess?? Assuming earl is a courtesy title, yes the younger brother can be given that title when his older brother dies. It is completely up to the father, since the earldom belongs to him. He could be a nasty fellow who withholds the courtesy title from his wild younger son, just to be contrary! But when the father dies, the oldest living son would inherit the marquessate, whether he liked it or not! And remember that the younger sons of a marquess automatically have the courtesy title Lord Firstname. So your hero would have been styled Lord Firstname before his brother died. _________________
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject:   Another thing to be aware of is the change from "Marquis" to "Marquess". As far as I can tell from period documents, "Marquis" is the form used through the Regency, with "Marquess" becoming the more popular form in the 1830s and later. That is certainly the case with the three Peerage Guides I've seen dating from 1779-1813). I really don't see "Marquess" showing up at all until post Waterloo (perhaps the change is usage was do to an anti-French feeling?). Another interesting thing I've been finding while looking at period Peerages and such is that "Viscount" seems to be a VERY rare title (as is "Marquis/Marquess"). Many (maybe even the vast majority) of the string of titles belonging to a Duke or Earl skip right down to Baron, and most Dukes don't skip over Marquis and go right to Earl. _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject:   KalenHughes wrote: Another thing to be aware of is the change from "Marquis" to "Marquess". As far as I can tell from period documents, "Marquis" is the form used through the Regency, with "Marquess" becoming the more popular form in the 1830s and later. That is certainly the case with the three Peerage Guides I've seen dating from 1779-1813). I really don't see "Marquess" showing up at all until post Waterloo (perhaps the change is usage was do to an anti-French feeling?). According to my copy of Black's Titles and Forms of Address, marquess is the "older and purely British" style of the title, and that the holder can use eiher marquess or marquis, as he chooses. I also have this great little tome called The Book of Ranks and Dignities of British Society from 1807 in which it says "marquess is the preferred current spelling." Either spelling works and is accurate. Just remember that even if a British peer decides to style himself Marquis, it is still pronounced Mark-wess. The Brits love to twist those French words! _________________
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backwater mary
Upstart Joined: 13 Feb 2007 Posts: 20 Location: Thomson, IL	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject:   My thanks to KieraSoleore, Lady Di and Lady Victoria for their welcome and replies. With a special note of appreciation for that wonderful site http://laura.chinet.com/html/titles02.html and information from Candice. I am stashing that info in my keeper-file for future reference. Unfortunately, reading all that brought up some other questions....like... is it ONLY sons who can inherit titles? I read somewhere that when a member of the nobility dies without a male to inherit, the title then reverts back to the crown and the females are only entitled to the unentailed properties. But if there are only daughters/grand-daughters and a great grandson is born BEFORE the titleholder dies then would that male child inherit the title as long as the succession is in a straight line of descent? Is there a site where that sort of information can be found? It seems like the more information we find, if we really want to be certain we're correct, the more we need to find. Research can drive one up the wall sometimes, but I think readers can usually tell when an author has researched carefully. It's in the quality of the writing. . _________________ Anything but housework!
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject:   backwater mary wrote: My thanks to KieraSoleore, Lady Di and Lady Victoria for their welcome and replies. With a special note of appreciation for that wonderful site http://laura.chinet.com/html/titles02.html and information from Candice. I am stashing that info in my keeper-file for future reference. Unfortunately, reading all that brought up some other questions....like... is it ONLY sons who can inherit titles? I read somewhere that when a member of the nobility dies without a male to inherit, the title then reverts back to the crown and the females are only entitled to the unentailed properties. But if there are only daughters/grand-daughters and a great grandson is born BEFORE the titleholder dies then would that male child inherit the title as long as the succession is in a straight line of descent? Is there a site where that sort of information can be found? It seems like the more information we find, if we really want to be certain we're correct, the more we need to find. Research can drive one up the wall sometimes, but I think readers can usually tell when an author has researched carefully. It's in the quality of the writing. . The letters patent that grant the title (and land etc) generally spell out how the title may be inherited. Most are only inherited through the male line, so if your peer only had daughters, the title goes to his brother or his brother's sons. If he had no brother, then you travel up the family tree to the last holder of the title, ie the current peer's father. If he had a brother, then his descendants fall in line to inherit. That's why you sometimes see a second- or third-cousin inheriting a title. If there are no living male descendants, the title reverts to the crown. There have, though, been special cases where the crown will turn around and re-grant the title to a male descending from a female branch, ie the grandson of the peer whose mother was the peer's daughter. That doesn't happen often, but it has occurred rarely. The funny thing about all this is that where the monarchy is concerned, females have always been allowed to inherit the crown. You'd think some of those Queens would have granted titles that allowed females to inherit! _________________
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CjRH
Influential Member of the Ton Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 238 Location: an hour out of Frisco	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:19 pm    Post subject:   Candice wrote: Assuming earl is a courtesy title, yes the younger brother can be given that title when his older brother dies. It is completely up to the father, since the earldom belongs to him. He could be a nasty fellow who withholds the courtesy title from his wild younger son, just to be contrary! But when the father dies, the oldest living son would inherit the marquessate, whether he liked it or not! I had no idea a father could withhold a courtesy title from his next-oldest son! That's kind of shocking to me.... Candice wrote: And remember that the younger sons of a marquess automatically have the courtesy title Lord Firstname. So your hero would have been styled Lord Firstname before his brother died. I was always under the impression that it was Earls and up whose children had courtesy titles of Lord or Lady Firstname? Am I off? _________________ "Alas," cried Candide, "I have had some knowledge of love myself, this ruler of hearts, this soul of souls; yet it never gave me more than a kiss and twenty kicks in the ass!"
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:37 pm    Post subject:   CjRH wrote: Candice wrote: And remember that the younger sons of a marquess automatically have the courtesy title Lord Firstname. So your hero would have been styled Lord Firstname before his brother died. I was always under the impression that it was Earls and up whose children had courtesy titles of Lord or Lady Firstname? Am I off? Nope, you're right on the money. A marquess is part of the "and up" group. _________________
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CjRH
Influential Member of the Ton Joined: 06 Apr 2007 Posts: 238 Location: an hour out of Frisco	Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject:   Ah, thank you. Don't know where I suddenly got the impression you meant marquis and up. .... I just have to say it: I can't stand the way "mark-wess" sounds. _________________ "Alas," cried Candide, "I have had some knowledge of love myself, this ruler of hearts, this soul of souls; yet it never gave me more than a kiss and twenty kicks in the ass!"
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:28 am    Post subject:   Candice wrote: According to my copy of Black's Titles and Forms of Address, marquess is the "older and purely British" style of the title, and that the holder can use eiher marquess or marquis, as he chooses. I also have this great little tome called The Book of Ranks and Dignities of British Society from 1807 in which it says "marquess is the preferred current spelling." Either spelling works and is accurate. Just remember that even if a British peer decides to style himself Marquis, it is still pronounced Mark-wess. The Brits love to twist those French words! Cool. This one is always such a pain. The Peerage I have from 1779 only uses "marquis", so that's what I went with for my Georgian books. When looking at extant books and magazines on Google books for example the earlist hit I get for "marquess" is 1816. For "Marquis" it's 1717. I'll have to pop open my OED when I get home . . . _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:12 am    Post subject:   And I just checked the others that I can find online: Fielding Peerage, 1790, uses "marquis". Kearsley's Peerage, 1799 and 1802 editons, use "marquis". The Peerage of Irelaend, 1817, uses "marquis". Debritts Peerage, 1820, uses "marquess". Lodge Peerage, 1832, uses both. LOL! _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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