Curtsey and Bow

Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

Does anyone have basic rules of curtseying and bowing?

Here are some examples if you want to answer them:

Would a duchess even curtsey when meeting a mere Miss at her own ball? Would it rather be the miss who would curtsey deeply out of respect for her title?

Does a lady with a lower (or no) title curtsey when approached by a male of higher ranking before he bows? Or does he set the standard because he is the one of higher rank, bowing first? And...would they bow and curtsey at the end of their conversation?

Thanks!
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Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Curtsey and Bow

Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Curtsey and Bow

Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:56 am Post subject:

I think rank trumps gender, but I'm not sure. Does anyone know, or have a reference that will tell us?
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Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

There is an author I have contacted with regency research issues. She has been very helpful but I won't put her name here, not having permission. But, because bowing and curtseying usually goes along with introduction, I have posted two of my own questions and her replies. I hoped these answer the rank versus gender question well.

My question:
Martin is the duke of PlaceName. So, he walks up to two women at a ball. Eliza knows him, the other, Jenny, does not. My understanding is that in good manners (though I know this didn't always happen), Eliza initiates conversation, but knows to introduce him to Jenny. She says:

Jenny, may I present His Grace of PlaceName. Your grace, this is my cousin, Jenny Something, visiting us from France.

Her Answer:
Actually, the woman was always presented to the man, especially if his rank is higher than yours. "Your Grace, may I present Miss Something?" If he nods agreement, you may then continue, "She is visiting us from France. The Duke of PlaceName, Jenny." Assuming, of course, that you are on first-name basis with Jenny. If this is a lower-ranking lady, the duke may stare through you as if he didn't hear, in which case, you back away before you embarrass yourself further.

My response and question:
Okay, good. But in conversation between two people in the aristocracy, wasn't the woman supposed to make clear, whether through body language or speech, that she would talk with a man before he spoke with her? I thought this was simply a respect thing. Am I wrong?

Her Response:
The respect owed a lord overrides the respect owed a female -- if the lord is significantly higher in standing. So in the case of an earl and a duchess being introduced, the earl would be introduced to the duchess. However, if the daughter of a vicar is being introduced to the earl, then it is she who is presented to him. There are no absolute rules when it comes to the aristocracy because too often rank trumps general rules. When the parties are roughly the same rank, then it is up to the female to decide whether the introduction is wanted -- ie, the man is presented to her. However, when the parties are of very different rank, then it is up to the higher ranking person to make this decision. It's the only way he/she can avoid being overrun by mushrooms wanting to scrape acquaintance. The impression I got from your example was that the female in question was a mere miss from another country -- definitely far inferior to a duke.

By the way, when using foreigners in an English-based book, remember that the lowest street urchin in England considered himself superior to anyone from another country, including a king. By the Regency, England ruled much of the world. The phrase, 'the sun never sets on the Union Jack' probably didn't exist yet, the reality certainly did.
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Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

So, Candice, to make sure I have your response correct:

Those titled only bow or curtsey in meeting someone with rank above their own?

But, usually both bow or curtsey at end of conversation, even if duchess?

What about if you are friends? Is that just much more casual, where bowing and curtseying isn't done much?

Thanks! Very Happy

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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Getting Bowing Down

Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

Candice,

You said:

"If the women are good friends, there would be less formality between them. But at a public event, formality kicks in."

I'm assuming that by public event you mean anything pre-arranged like a ball? Or do you mean anything in public?

Thank you!
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Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:56 am Post subject:

I believe that if the two women were out shopping in public, for example, they would remain informal with each other. Even at a ball, if they were alone together, they'd likely be informal. But at that same ball, or other event, when others are present, I think the lower-ranking lady would address her higher-ranking friend with more formality.
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Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

I keep coming up with new scenarios of bowing and curtseying. Man, writing regency works is time consuming!

My latest questions:
You are a young miss without a title. You have already met an earl in passing that night, curtseying. He bows in response. But later you're talking with two gal pals and neither of them have bumped into the earl that night. He approaches. The two gal pals curtsey and he bows in response, but do you have to curtsey again, making this night nothing but non-stop curtseying, or is the one time at first meet enough?

And lastly:
You are still a young miss without a title. You walk into a duke and duchess's home for a ball. Duchess says, "Good evening and welcome." You bow way down there to show she's awesome. But how the heck do you then address them? "Good evening your graces." "Thank you your graces." After all, you don't want to sound like an idiot.
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Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

You're making my brain hurt, LOL!

This is the kind of stuff that I sweep under the rug, because IMO, it's dry. What does it really add to the story? Does it move the plot forward? Does it show character? Does it help set the scene? No, it doesn’t do any of these important things. If you spend too much time with the bobbing and curtseying and inconsequential exchanges that don't move the story along, you risk boring the reader (and not having enough pages for the actual important stuff).

Plus, as a writer, you risk getting bogged down in the minutia, which can lead to being paralyzed. I see this all the time with writers on the Beau Monde loop. They’ll get obsessed with finding out the name of an ACTUAL inn in whatever town their characters are passing though, and waste gobs and gobs of time “researching” this trivial detail, when they could have just made something up and spent all that time writing.
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Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

Geez! My brain hurts, too!

Actually, I'm not writing a novel but a screenplay, so I don't have to put all the stuff novelists do. And I'm in the final stages of editting, so now is when I'm putting all the details I had no idea about as I just had fun writing the story. But, I might still need to trust myself a little bit more. Very Happy

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Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

Poor Relation Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 95

(ahh, fun smilies...awesome procrastination tool.)
I am on the verge of never letting any of my characters set foot ashore ever again!
So when there are no titles involved, is there any bowing or curtseying when a mere Miss is first introduced to a mere Mr. at a ball?

Upstart Joined: 24 Jun 2008 Posts: 36

Kalen, I very much appreciate that reminder about Pride and Prejudice. I'm excited to work on my story again!

Mel-

From what I've learned, it is my understanding that in general a mere miss and mister bow and curtsy upon meeting at a ball. It's just courtesy (not to be confused with curtsy, of course). The funny thing is that mere misters or misses still had concepts of being above others, so their introductions would probably reveal that when bowing and curtsying. I heard an author compare the aristocracy with Hollywood. Supposedly, those seasoned actors having done more movies; having more wealth are often said to behave like jerks to the other "new" actors. Though I'm sure some of that is exaggerated.

An example of this "I'm better than you" behavior is Robert Ferrars, Fanny's brother-in-law in Sense and Sensibility. Do you remember when he meets the Dashwood girls and Lucy at the London ball scene? He is a mere mister but in the screenplay it says, "Robert looks Elinor up and down. He exchanges glances with Fanny before he speaks." This happens after Mrs. Jennings makes her crazy comments about Mr. Edward, referring to Miss Dashwood "counting on him". So, I'm sure his reaction had something to with that, but he still felt the right to do that as the younger brother. About your question on bowing - In this same scene there is a general bowing and shaking of hands between Mrs. Jennings, the Dashwood girls and Robert Dashwood. And, by the way, Lucy drops a low curtsy. This may have something to do with the reasoning behind Fanny taking her under her wing for a spell. For it seems Lucy knows her place, even among the other misses and misters. And that simply feeds Fanny's extreme ego.

I hope this helped you somewhat. If anyone knows more about this than me, feel free to correct me!

Have fun writing, Mel.
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