Royals in the states

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 12:11 pm Post subject: Royals in the states

When/If titled people moved to the states, how were they treated? Were they still given priveledge even though their titles were linked to the UK? Were there any US royals? Actually began thinking about this after watching "Kate and Leopold" for the umpteenth time and realizing Leopold was named Duke of Albany, but was this of Albany NY or somewhere in the UK?
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Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess

Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject:

We don't have royalty here, period. We have always been fascinated by them, though.

People can certainly use their titles here, but they don't mean anything accept to provide a bit of social cachet.

The Duke of Albany was a real title. In fact, Queen Victoria's son Leopold was the Duke of Albany. He was the hemopheliac who died in his 20s or early 30s. I doubt, though, that the screenwriters of Kate and Leopold meant for the Hugh Jackman character to be based on the real prince. They probably just thought "Duke of Albany" sounded nice. Very Happy

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Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:11 am Post subject:

Thanks for that. I knew there were no US nobles, just wondered more how real nobles were treated while here and if they could still use their titles...I figured it was just as social thing.

I was actually considering having a heroine that left the UK as an untitled woman (scorned at that) and comes back titled, having married an already titled man in the US who had become a lumber Baron and was issued a titled by the Prince or....however that happens. How does that happen? You know, courtesy titles....?

Basic premise is that she was dumped after being engaged to an Earl because his family wanted him to marry a richer, titled widow, and after being shunned by her family and the hero (though forcibly) she goes to the states, marries the rich lumber guy, gets a title of her own and then comes back to the UK like 10 yrs later having been widowed herself and is able to strut under her ex's nose the fact that she's richer than he is.
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Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:41 am Post subject:

BTW, the Duke if Albany title bestowed to Leopold (the real one) was it named after Albany NY or a place in UK?
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Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:30 am Post subject:

As far as I remember (please correct me if I'm wrong!) the title "Duke of Albany" was in its first creation a Scottish title, bestowed by the Kings of Scotland (usually on younger sons of the king). Once Scotland and England were united as one kingdom it was used in pretty much the same way by the monarch of Great Britain and Ireland, although at one point it was actually known as the dukedom of York and Albany as these two dukedoms were combined. Then later they were split up again...

Albany as such was a part of Scotland, not a town or city. Nothing to do with Albany, NY. Of course, the people making the movie, might have picked Albany because it sounded familiar due to there being place with this name in the US...
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Wellies

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained." -- The Duke of Wellington

Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:45 pm Post subject:

Wellies is right about the origin of the Albany title. It was indeed a Scottish title. For several centuries, though, it has been a title bestowed upon a younger son of the monarch.

As for your heroine who comes to America and marries a lumber baron, her husband must, of course, be a British subject in order to receive a title. So he either has to inherit it, or if it is bestowed upon him by the monarch, it would have to be in recognition for some kind of special service. If he's been in America a long time, you're better off having him inherit a title. Courtesy titles are those given to eldest sons of fathers who "own" more than one title. For example, if an earl also holds a viscount title, he would likely bestow that title upon his eldest son. It's a courtesy title because the son does not in fact "own" it, and he is not considered a peer (ie he does not sit in the House of Lords) until his father dies and he inherits all the the titles.

Titled persons of any country could certainly use their titles in the U.S. There would likely have been uppity social climbers who would make a big deal out of "my friend, the countess" for example. But republicans that we are, there would also be those Americans who refused to use a person's title just to rub their noses in the fact that we don't have a monarchy. So you can have your heroine treated in whatever way best serves your story.
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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject:

I had done some research and found areas of Pennsylvania were laden with lumber barons and since I am from PA, thought it would be interesting to use the info. I would definitely make the heroines husband a British subject, but as to the courtesy title, I was thinking of it being bestowed by the Prince, as it were, for perhaps keeping Londons burgeoning industry going by offering importation of lumber and, I am sure, some of its profits. I'm sure it was done, but if things would be easier were he to be titled before going to the US, I can do that to.
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Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject:

Only the monarch can grant a title, not the prince. Though if you are writing of the time when the Prince of Wales was Regent, then I believe he could have granted a title. But the only "courtesy" title he could grant (though that is not the correct term for it) would be a knighthood, which is not heriditary and is bestowed as an honor for some special deed or work. Like Sir Paul McCartney or Dame Judy Dench. The knight would be addressed as Sir Firstname and his wife as Lady Lastname. The title would not pass on to their sons as it is a sort of one-time grant.

I do think you're better off having the husband's title granted, or inheritied, before he leaves England. If he becomes a baron of American industry, it is unlikely the British monarch would reward him for it. Very Happy

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Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject:

Just some thoughts on my behalf on the Prince bestowing titles from what I have observed in my reading material...

There were titles that were bestowed for merit, e. g. politicians who served their king/the Prince Regent well or successful military commanders (my favourite subject, of course Wink

). The Duke of Wellington would be a prime example for the latter (he started out as an Earl's younger son and became viscount, then earl, then marquess and finally duke of Wellington in the course of five years as he won more and more battles). These titles were not courtesy titles but real titles in the English peerage, hereditary and all.

Then, of coure, there were knighthoods that were bestowed upon worthy individuals, such as someone was made a Knight of the Bath (KB) - they were then a Sir John Smith, KB, for example, and his wife would be Lady Smith, but knighthoods were not hereditary.

So it might depend a little on what you want to do and how high you want your hero to climb, if you know what I mean. I think it was rare that an individual jumped straight from being a commoner to being an earl or higher. But it is possible that someone is made a baron or viscount and then later an earl etc.
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Wellies

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained." -- The Duke of Wellington

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject:

Ah, I see Candice posted at the same time as I did. As always, I bow to the Queen of the Board and her superior knowledge niedermayr anbeten

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I have the honour to be etc.
Wellies

"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained." -- The Duke of Wellington

Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:35 pm Post subject:

Yeah, looks like I will make him the son of a peer then, just to make this a tad easier. He's not the hero though. The heroine marries him, gains the title and then is widowed. She comes back wealthy and titled, having left shunned and broken by the heroes family, who was forced to marry a richer woman instead of her some years earlier.
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Live up to your potential instead of imitating someone else's. ~ Martha Burgess