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Lady Proserpina
Upstart Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Posts: 15	Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject: Slang/Mannerisms Question   I don't have any CP who are writing in the Regency era. But my CPs have raised a couple of questions that I am having trouble finding answers for. Since more than one person is calling me on these items, I feel uncertain now and fearing that I am creating moderisms all over the place. First, they felt that rolling the eyes is a modern mannerism. I felt this was a human universal. The situation would be a young widow with attitude problems chatting alone with her cicisbeo when he has forgotten something she already told him. (In other words, it isn't someone rolling their eyes on being presented to the Prince Regent or something like that.) Second, the use of nautical terms in general speech. Particularly the term "dead ahead." They said this wouldn't have come in until later. As far as I have been able to find out the use of "dead heat" to describe a race is dated to 1796 and dead on as a marksmanship term to 1888, but I cannot find any references to "dead ahead." But I've had a sense that during the age of sail, so many people were connected to the sea, either through the navy or the merchant side, that nautical terms were used fairly common in the Georgian/Regency eras, especially by those widely read in the literature of the time. It seems common sense to me, but ugh, maybe my common sense is getting me into trouble? Third, the use of the phrase "What the devil?" or the same with his residence at the end. They say this sounds too modern, even if it is the hero using it. One of them felt that English aristocracy would not have used conjunctions in daily speech and thank you to the ladies here I was able to put that to rest easily.
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Slang/Mannerisms Question   Lady Proserpina wrote: First, they felt that rolling the eyes is a modern mannerism. I felt this was a human universal. Well, Boswell uses it that way in his The Life of Dr. Johnson. I certainly don't think of it as a modern mannerism. Lady Proserpina wrote: Second, the use of nautical terms in general speech. Particularly the term "dead ahead." They said this wouldn't have come in until later. As far as I have been able to find out the use of "dead heat" to describe a race is dated to 1796 and dead on as a marksmanship term to 1888, but I cannot find any references to "dead ahead." If a man used it, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If a woman used it, I'd expect her to have a nautical family. It's certainly a period concept. From the OED: 25. a. Of a wall, level, etc.: Unbroken, unrelieved by breaks or interruptions; absolutely uniform and continuous. In dead level there is at once the sense ‘unrelieved, unvaried, monotonous’, and that of ‘having no fall or inclination in any direction, absolute’. 1597 BACON Coulers Good & Evil (Arb.) 143 It seemeth..a shorter distance..if it be all dead and continued, then if it haue trees or buildings or any other markes whereby the eye may deuide it. 1670 DRYDEN Conq. Granada II. III. i, By the dead wall, you, Abdelmelech, wind. 1742 POPE Dunc. IV. 268 We bring to one dead level every mind. 1860 TYNDALL Glac. I. xxii. 153, I become more weary upon a dead level..than on a steep mountain side. 1868 YATES Rock Ahead II. i, On every hoarding and dead-wall. 1887 LOWELL Democr. 19 To reduce all mankind to a dead level of mediocrity. Lady Proserpina wrote: Third, the use of the phrase "What the devil?" or the same with his residence at the end. They say this sounds too modern, even if it is the hero using it. Again, the OED is your friend: 20. As an expression of impatience, irritation, strong surprise, dismay, or vexation. a. After an interrogative word, as who, what, how, where, when. [App. taken directly from Fr.; cf. 12th c. OF. comment diables! dist li rois au vis fier; diables being in the nominative (= vocative case); mod.F. que diable faire!; in ME. also what devil, about 1600 often what a devil. Also in Ger., Du., Da. and other langs.] c1385 CHAUCER L.G.W. 2694 Hypermestre, What devel have I with the knyfe to doo? c1440 York Myst. xxxi. 237 What the deuyll and his dame schall y now doo? c1460 Towneley Myst. (Surtees) 114 What the deville is this? he has a long snowte. 1470-85 MALORY Arthur X. xlviii, What deuylle doo ye in this Countrey? c1489 CAXTON Sonnes of Aymon xix. 408 How the devyll dare ye thus speke? 1529 MORE Dyalogue III. v. Wks. 214 Why, quod he, what deuill rigour could thei more haue shewed? 1562 J. HEYWOOD Prov. & Epigr. (1867) 183 When the diuell will ye come in? 1568 GRAFTON Chron. II. 355 Who the devill hath sente for them? 1589 PUTTENHAM Eng. Poesie III. xxiii. (Arb.) 274 What a diuell tellest thou to me of iustice? 1596 SHAKES. 1 Hen. IV, I. ii. 6 What a diuell hast thou to do with the time of the day? 1670 G. H. Hist. Cardinals I. II. 40 How a Devil will the Pope observe the Decrees of a Councel? 1692 WASHINGTON tr. Milton's Def. Pop. viii. (1851) 184 What the Devil is it to you? 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones XV. v, Why, who the devil are you? 1803 tr. Lebrun's Mons. Botte I. 155 What the devil business had she in the store-room? 1819 BYRON Juan I. c, And wonders why the devil he got heirs. a1845 HOOD Lullaby ii, What the devil makes him cry? Lady Proserpina wrote: One of them felt that English aristocracy would not have used conjunctions in daily speech and thank you to the ladies here I was able to put that to rest easily. I'm not entirely sure you want to rely on non-Regency writers/readers for this kind of critique. I had the same problem years ago with a group that I finally just quit. They were great writers, but instead of giving me helpful story critique, they spent all their time questioning minutia that I already knew was correct. _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:05 pm    Post subject:   Thanks, Kalen. I was just about to look all that stuff up and saw that you'd already done it. And ditto on the critique group. Unless they've researched the period, don't rely on them for accurate info on the Regency. _________________
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject:   Candice wrote: Thanks, Kalen. I was just about to look all that stuff up and saw that you'd already done it. And ditto on the critique group. Unless they've researched the period, don't rely on them for accurate info on the Regency. Having been through it myself, I jumped on responding (love that free OED through my library!). _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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Lady Proserpina
Upstart Joined: 13 Oct 2009 Posts: 15	Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject:   Thank you so much Candice and Kalen. It really helped me.
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