Ladies and riding astride

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: Ladies and riding astride

I have a dilema - I thought I could solve it with a split skirt type riding habit but those weren't adopted until Victorian times. So that one went out the window. (and it was such a good comprimise too verzweifelt

)

While in Town, my girl is as proper as she can be on the surface and doesn't mind a side saddle. But when she's out and about on her father's estate she's due to inherit she prefers to ride astride.

As she was a bit of a hoyden in her younger years, she doesn't really care (and none of the tenants seem to mind). It's keeping her poor aunt who raised her happy that has my bonnet strings all in knots.

As a comprimise could she have worn a pair of breeches or something along those lines under a dress or habit? As aunti lets her get away with more odd habits than most other people would, I figured I'd try to keep the old girl happy with this one thing. But it's looking more and more like that won't be happening.

Don't know why I'm fretting over this one detail as I'm not to that point in the story yet, just a riding party through Hyde Park put it in my brain and it won't go away. d'oh!

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Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

IMO, the real question here is not What would she wear to ride astride? but Why would she ever have done this in the first place?

You have to have motivation that goes back to her childhood. Why would her parents (or aunt) have ever permitted and encouraged this? It doesn't sound to me as if they would. If she'd grown up riding aside (which it appears she would have, given the info you've provided), there's no reason to suddenly adopt the astride position. To our modern mind, it makes sense that you'd want to ride in the slightly more secure position, but I'm not sure that this attitude should be transported back in time. It just feels VERY modern.

I see this all the time in contest entries (and occasionally in published books) and it seems to be shortcut for "my heroine is a feisty tomboy who will give the hero a run for his money". As you can tell, I'm not a fan.

That said, if you must do it (if its somehow necessary to the actual plot), then yes, there's no reason she couldn't wear a pair of breeches or pantaloons under her habit,

Remember that riding boots are also not something women wore, They wore slippers or half-boots to ride. I've only seen two images of a woman in riding boots (both from the 18th century). One is a rude caricature that shows her the woman with 5 o'clock shadow (she was the only woman in England to have her own hunt) and the other is Marie Antoinette wearing a feminized version of a military uniform (she was infamous for riding astride with her ladies in waiting; one of the many defiant quirks that added to people's dislike of her, and to the claims that she was a lesbian)
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-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:44 am Post subject:

I love coming here so Kalen can set me back on the straight and narrow. niedermayr anbeten

I don't really have to - it wasn't so much an excuse just because (though admitedly slightly as I have experience with it and none with side saddle) as there's a scene later on where hero & heroine are out riding and come across a group worriedly searching for a young child that's gone missing.

They join the search efforts, rain storm, find the child, and have a minor bonding moment (he does something stupid while in Town and pisses her off, and he finds her at the family estate to make good) - and it just worked in my head that she was astride for all this. But he can just as easily carry the little girl as I imagine it would have been more difficult with an extra passenger up front with a side saddle.

(yes, I realize it's mostly unchaperoned, but there's an over protective dog and stable boy in the picture as well - slinking through by the skin of my teeth)

Her mother died shortly after she was born, father never remarried and had no interest in the child. So her mother's sister (currently a spinster, but things might work out better on certain points if I make her a widow) stepped in and brought her up.

Her main hoydenistic tendancies were climbing trees and digging in the dirt looking for bugs and other things of interest. Doesn't climb trees so much anymore, and her playing in the dirt is more restricted to her flower beds. Still has a thing for bugs - though she doesn't run up to her aunt with them anymore to show off her finds (to which said aunt is very appreciative).
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Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

If it's a small child, the woman could still carry it (in her lap), though it would be easier for the hero who can guide his mount with his knees (that's the real trick and where a woman aside is at a distinct disadvantage).

As for them being out alone, that's not really such a big deal in the country. Even in Austen's books the heroines walk out with the heroes. The whole CONSTANT chaperonage thing is, IMO, a romancelandia invention (as is being caught in a simple kiss meaning you must marry because the girl is now comprised; clearly not if you look at actual history).

If you still WANT her astride, give her some traumatic childhood incidence in a sidesaddle. You could even have the aunt scandalize herself (off in the mists of the girl's childhood) by insisting that sidesaddles are too dangerous and that if she MUST ride, it MUST be astride so she'll be safe (great scene when in town and the girl needs to ride aside).
_________________
-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

My favorite reason given for women not being able to ride astride is that their thighs were too round to grip the saddle, LOL!
_________________
-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:15 am Post subject:

Thanks for all that info, Kalen. As I have zero experience with horses, I bow to those of you who ride and know these things.

Being horse-ignorant, it always seemed to me that it would be so easy to fall off when riding side-saddle. But various horsewomen have asured me that it's much more secdure than it looks.
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Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:54 pm Post subject:

I've already made her side saddle it for their Hyde Park outing so I'll forgo riding astride for this story. Makes more sense anyway for her to lead the way while he carries the child as he doesn't know the area at all.

But will certainly keep all of this in mind for other ideas I'm sure will come up.

Constant chaperone equals quick easy tension builder?? Or just other people following in the footsteps of more um ... uptight ... authors of the past without questioning it? Proabaly from the "virtue must be protected at all costs" and "horney youngsters can't ever control themselves" schools of thought would be my guess now that I think about it.

Shep, the chaperone of four legs and fur, is a great one - cause he doesn't care and only barks after someone else suddenly shows up.

Otherwise I've two sneaky old ladies who leave them alone in a room with the door open from time to time when they feel the lovebirds need a bit of a nudge.
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Help! There's aliens invading my romance!

Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

I think the constant chaperonage thing is a Victorian sensibility that got pushed backwards in Romancelandia because so many historical studies (aka research sources) don't bother making a distinction between the EARLY 19th century and what went on later with the uptight Victorians (aka the children of the wild Regency). That, and the fact (as Candice has pointed out previously) that Heyer's wonderful books really do have a very Victorian feel to them when it comes to mores, and so many of us are just steeped in Heyer.
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-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:25 am Post subject:

That would make sense, Victorian mindset/behaviors being more prevalent in the grand scheme. I know if it wasn't for coming here I'd probably still be under that umbrella. Still working on things in some areas - it's what keeps me coming back until people get tired of me. Embarassed

Has definately been freeing to find things weren't always quite as uptight as people like to think from the discussions here. Means I get to have more fun with my characters. Wink

Course, there are those moments I pause in the middle of a scene wondering if I can actually have them do what they're doing. I can always work that out on the rewrite though if I've made a giant mess of things.

Like my hero's mother going round the bend just now at a party in her own home (she doesn't like the heroine much) and causing a bit of a scene. Have a feeling the earl is going to be rather cranky with me before it's all over.
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Help! There's aliens invading my romance!

Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

I read a lot of biographies (so I can see what people really did and what the consequences were) as well as period letters and journals (when I can find them). I also really like books like Sex in Georgian England, Alienated Affections, and Broken Lives, all of which are filled with case studies of actual couples. A lot of people claim they know "how things were", but these books are based on studies of real lives and real court cases, etc. And once you understand the law, how it was applied, and what the typical outcomes were, it's easier to find interesting (and plausible!) situations for your characters to contend with.
_________________
-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject:

I'll have to see if I can find those. Thanks for the recomendations. Very Happy

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Upstart Joined: 05 Oct 2010 Posts: 8 Location: Colorado

I was wondering some about this topic, too. I hope this isn't a thread jack, but in my WIP, I have an American-born heroine who lived on her foster mother's farm on the frontier until she was 14. I figured that might give her a plausible reason for riding astride? She also wears breeches, boots, and a man's old fashioned frock coat when riding. I have had the hero express suitable shock at her apparel Very Happy

but maybe it's too shocking, even for an American "hoyden"?

Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100

He's shocked to come across her dressed like this on the frontier, or she's gosh enough to think she can dress this way in Town?
_________________
-Kalen
w/a Isobel Carr
Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011
Book 1: The League of Second Sons
www.isobelcarr.com

Upstart Joined: 05 Oct 2010 Posts: 8 Location: Colorado

Oops, it looks like I wasn't clear enough. My heroine was born in America. She's lived in England since she was 14. She knows perfectly well that it's improper for her to ride astride, and wear men's clothing when she does so. But she only does this in the countryside; if she were to go to London, she would bow to the dictates of society, and don a riding habit, and ride sidesaddle. Is this plausible, that she could get away, riding astride, and in men's clothing, in the countryside, and the locals would be somewhat scandalized, but she could get away with it by being "that eccentric American" and the graunddaughter of a viscount?