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Elizabeth Bennet
Upstart Joined: 02 Oct 2009 Posts: 27 Location: No Man's Land	Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:04 am    Post subject: Dowries   Where would a middle class girl, with a dowry of 40,000 pounds, shop for material in London - Picadilly or Bond Street? Or would she go somewhere else. The material is to make her coming out dress, or wedding dress - if that helps any. Thanks _________________ "...I had not known you a month before I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry."
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:31 pm    Post subject:   If she has 40,000 pounds, she's much higher up the food chain than merely middle class. She could be from the merchant class, ie her family's money came from trade and not from an aristocratic lineage tied to land, but she's still rich. With that kind of money, she could shop wherever she wanted. There was Grafton House on New Bond Street, but most of the big linen drapers were at Ludgate Hill. _________________
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Elizabeth Bennet
Upstart Joined: 02 Oct 2009 Posts: 27 Location: No Man's Land	Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 4:27 pm    Post subject:   I would rather her be more like Georgiana Darcy, and the money come from a great family linage. So what sort of dowry would that kind of upper middle class girl have? Also, if I were to write that her father owned a mill factory in order to produce his own wool from his own sheep, does that make him a 'tradesman', even if he had other people running it? _________________ "...I had not known you a month before I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry."
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:31 am    Post subject:   Elizabeth Bennet wrote: I would rather her be more like Georgiana Darcy, and the money come from a great family linage. So what sort of dowry would that kind of upper middle class girl have? Miss Darcy had 30K pounds. I'm sure I've posted this before, but here's a look at dowrys in Austen's works: Dowries: Is she or ain’t she an heiress? In which I take a close look at all the examples I can find in the books of Jane Austen. Three to four times the yearly income of the estate seems to be the amount a good family gave their daughter/s in these books. This is the case both for Miss Darcy and seems to be with the Bingley sisters (Bingley inherits one hundred thousand pounds, but no estate, and we are told he has “five thousand a year” which I can only assume is from interest on said sum). In real life we know it was often far less. The Duke of Devonshire only gave his legitimate daughters ten thousand pounds each (though he gave his favorite illegitimate one thirty thousand). That's only one-tenth of his purported yearly income. So Harry-O and Little Gee married on about the same amount of money as Mrs. Elton! Of course, they had the Whig connections to help them along as well. One of the most well dowered girls I’ve read about had three different men claiming to be her father, all of whom gave her lavish dowries, adding up to more than one hundred thousand pounds. Needless to say the stain of illegitimacy didn’t hold her back. And there is a story of a very savvy heiress of fifty thousand mentioned in Fanny Burney’s memoirs, who agreed to a run away match, but told the suitor she only had five thousand, not the purported fifty to see what he would do (he fled, “and now she's married to somebody else, and has her 50,000 pounds fortune all safe.”). Emma Augusta Hawkins (aka Mrs. Elton) has “an independent fortune, of so many thousands as would always be called ten; a point of some dignity, as well as some convenience”. Ten thousand pounds, while only a third of what Emma will have (which is the same as what Miss Darcy has) is enough to satisfy Mr. Elton, and, seemingly, as a vicar he is good enough for her. And while her dowry is mentioned in a way that implies it is large, she is not called an heiress. Emma, herself, is called “the heiress of thirty thousand pounds”. She considers herself a step well above Mr. Elton, but not above Frank Churchell, who is a gentleman with expectations. The often maligned Miss Campbell has “a future of twelve thousand pounds”. Which was enough to induce Frank’s friend, Mr. Dixon into matrimony. Love and Friendship An unnamed girl has “four thousand pounds, and will probably spend nearly as much every year in Dress and Public places”. Obviously these girls are being shown as young and frivolous, but I find it interesting that a girl with a dowry of far less than most of the characters we see expects to spend nearly Mr. Bingley's yearly income as simple spending money! Mansfield Park Miss Maria Ward (aka Lady Bertram) “with only seven thousand pounds, had the good luck to captivate Sir Thomas Bertram . . . All Huntingdon exclaimed on the greatness of the match, and her uncle, the lawyer, himself, allowed her to be at least three thousand pounds short of any equitable claim to it.” Mrs. Grant, the vicar’s wife, “Inquire where she [Aunt Norris] would, she could not find out that Mrs. Grant had ever had more than five thousand pounds.” Miss Crawford “had fixed on Tom Bertram; the eldest son of a baronet was not too good for a girl of twenty thousand pounds”. When Tom doesn’t work out, she’s not above settling for the younger son, but will not accept that he’s to take orders rather than attempt something smarter (much like Edward Ferrars’s mother in S&S). Persuasion Anne’s expectations are not large. Neither are those of her sisters. It is clearly stated that Sir Walter “could give his daughter at present but a small part of the share of ten thousand pounds which must be hers hereafter.” So her share is less than four thousand pounds to start with, and he can’t even come up with that. Pride and Prejudice The Bingley sisters “had a fortune of twenty thousand pounds, were in the habit of spending more than they ought, and of associating with people of rank, and were therefore in every respect entitled to think well of themselves, and meanly of others”. With a fortune equal to that of Miss Crawford, they certainly put on far more airs. Of the despised Miss King it is said, “The sudden acquisition of ten thousand pounds was the most remarkable charm of the young lady to whom he was now rendering himself agreeable”. And no one is surprised that a poor army officer should do so. Miss Darcy. Of her, Darcy says, “Mr. Wickham's chief object was unquestionably my sister's fortune, which is thirty thousand pounds”. The Bennett sisters (specifically Lydia). Mr. Gardner writes, “All that is required of you is, to assure to your daughter, by settlement, her equal share of the five thousand pounds secured among your children after the decease of yourself and my sister; and, moreover, to enter into an engagement of allowing her, during your life, one hundred pounds per annum.” With 5 daughters, this means the girls are marrying on the promise of a thousand pounds each, far less than the four to six thousand that Austen’s usual formula would have garnered them (Bennett estate is two thousand a year). Sense and Sensibility Miss Grey, to whom Willobhey runs after being cut off by his aunt, has “fifty thousand pounds”. I find it somewhat amazing that a girl with such prospects would marry a nearly penniless shmuck, but there you have it. Miss Morton is mentioned as the “only daughter of the late Lord Morton, with thirty thousand pounds”. Fanny, the hideous sister-in-law, had “ten thousand pounds”. Not so very great a fortune for someone whose nose is so high in the air. Northhanger Abby Miss Drummond “had a very large fortune; and, when she married, her father gave her twenty thousand pounds, and five hundred to buy wedding-clothes”. It is interesting to note that this is the same amount of money that Eleanor’s family has to live on for an entire year, and that the afore mentioned Fanny thinks is plenty for four females who keep no company and no carriage. A few more side notes on real marriages from the letters of Horace Walpole “Lord Middlesex is going to be married to Miss Boyle, Lady Shannon's daughter; she has thirty thousand pounds . . .” “My Lord Coke is going to be married to a Miss Shawe, of forty thousand pounds.” “Old Somerset is at last dead . . . giving the whole of his unsettled estate, which is about six thousand pounds a-year, equally between his two daughters.” _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:35 am    Post subject:   Elizabeth Bennet wrote: Also, if I were to write that her father owned a mill factory in order to produce his own wool from his own sheep, does that make him a 'tradesman', even if he had other people running it? IMO, yes, he's "in trade". He's a rich tradesman, but a tradesman all the same. His daughter, if given a large enough dowry, might marry a gentleman and his grandchildren might well be considered gentlemen and ladies (like the Bingleys, whose family money comes from trade of some kind a generation or so back; note that they have no ancestral home). _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com Last edited by KalenHughes on Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Candice
Queen of the Board Joined: 14 Sep 2006 Posts: 2731 Location: Minneapolis, MN	Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject:   Kalen has already nailed this one for you. Also, I would not have considered Miss Darcy to have been middle class. She does have aristocratic connections, which would not necessarily lift her out of the middle class, but 30,000 a year certainly does. I'd consider the Bennets to be middle class, whereas the Bingleys and Darcys were upper class. _________________
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KalenHughes
Viscountess of the Manor Joined: 20 Sep 2006 Posts: 1100	Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:35 am    Post subject:   Candice wrote: Also, I would not have considered Miss Darcy to have been middle class. She does have aristocratic connections, which would not necessarily lift her out of the middle class, but 30,000 a year certainly does. I'd consider the Bennets to be middle class, whereas the Bingleys and Darcys were upper class. I wouldn't consider her middleclass either. She's the granddaughter of an earl, and her mother clearly didn’t marry beneath herself (or Lady Catherine wouldn’t be so keen on her own daughter marrying Darcy). The Bennets are “middleclass” in the financial sense, but as Eliza points out, her father is a gentleman (landed and doesn’t work for a living). In period terms, I think of merchants and tradesmen as being of “the middle class” (between gentleman and laborers). _________________ -Kalen w/a Isobel Carr Ripe for Pleasure, May 2011 Book 1: The League of Second Sons www.isobelcarr.com
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Elizabeth Bennet
Upstart Joined: 02 Oct 2009 Posts: 27 Location: No Man's Land	Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:26 am    Post subject:   Thanks for simplifying things for me ladies! You are wonderful! _________________ "...I had not known you a month before I felt that you were the last man in the world whom I could ever be prevailed on to marry."
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